Hello Internet Marketers! I've been promising this interview for some time now and it's finally here. It's not due to anything other than Rok being such a busy guy and not only that, he's a great guy! I hope you enjoy this very informative and in depth interview with marketing expert Rok Hrastnik!
KB: Hello Rok, and thank you for taking the time out to talk with us today. To get us started, would you please tell us a bit about yourself and what you do?
RH: Hello Kim, and thank you for inviting me, it's an honor. I'm a marketing consultant specializing in informational approaches to marketing, internet marketing models and processes, and direct branding.
Yeah, sounds complicated, right?
When I say informational approaches to marketing I basically mean three things:
- marketing using relevant information (content delivery),
- attaining relevant information about your prospects and customers (information acquisition and analysis),
- using that information to increase the success of your entire marketing mix (information application).
This is more or less marketing the way most of us are practicing it on the internet.
Now add marketing models and processes to the mix. Every marketing goal can be achieved through multiple marketing models that can have any amount of specific processes attached to them. Each element of the process represents one step for the prospect, one step to bringing him or her further to our company and to loyalty.
The problem with most marketing strategies is that they isolate certain elements of these processes to create individual campaigns that rarely really work together to help advance the entire marketing initiative. My approach on the other hand involves constant and planned management of the relationship with an individual prospect. And I'm not talking about customer relationship management here, but something a lot more process oriented.
Imagine the fact that every interaction you have with a prospect, be it on your web site, through traditional media or personal contact, presents an element in your marketing process. Every single interaction. Considering your individual marketing strategy, even each consecutive visit to your web site might be considered a new interaction.
Process oriented relationship management plans the entire scope of such interactions, providing exact tools and goals for each interaction that bring the prospect closer to your and naturally his goal. The point is to plan every interaction and all the steps that follow it.
Doing this not only allows you to increase your marketing results, but also to precisely measure how good you are at each element and at what interactions you could perform better.
The third area I specialize in is direct branding, which simply focuses on uniting response-oriented direct marketing activities with brand building activities. Each marketing act becomes a branding act, and each branding act becomes a direct response tool.
But the bottom line is, I'm a marketer by heart and as such serve my clients to provide them with profitable marketing solutions that satisfy them and their own customers.
I recently started working with Studio Moderna, the largest Central and Eastern European direct marketing company, as their E-commerce Manager, with the task of developing an integrated internet marketing model that they will be able to use in 18 CEE countries.
I started with Studio Moderna after leaving the business daily Finance, after working with them for almost a year and a half, helping them turn their internet department in to one of the most profitable traditional media internet departments in the European Union.
Before that I was doing regular consulting for a variety of businesses (such as Iskratel, a global telecommunications solution provider for telecom companies) and even co-founded a personal assets management company (sold it quite some time ago).
In addition to my consulting work I'm also a regular speaker at marketing events in Slovenia (over 35 speaking sessions by now) and like to write a little something now and then.
If you'd like to know more head on to my
http://www.marketingstudies.net web site where I share hard data and reports on my marketing activities, including my failures and what you can learn from them. I'm focusing quite heavily on RSS at the moment, since I do believe it has strong potential as a sophisticated content delivery tool.
KB: That is quite an impressive list of accomplishments Rok! I’m sure our readers will want to know how one so young has been able to accomplish so much in so short a time. Can you tell us in a nutshell?
RH: Thank you.
There's not that much to tell. I've been born in to an entrepreneurial family and had the need to create and be independent since I can remember. I just decided to channel this need into marketing, and everything else is a direct result of that.
It's basically all about focus and determination. I don't even remember how many times I failed as an entrepreneur in my life, and to tell you the truth I don't even care.
Failure always comes with success; you can never have one without the other. I failed quite miserably about three times, and succeeded a few times more.
The trick is in learning how to transform your failures in to success, learning along the way and not making the same mistakes over and over again. But, always make sure that you succeed when it counts! You don't need to win all your battles, but you do need to win those that count and have a profound affect on your life.
And don't ever believe that once you make it, failures will stop happening. Life just isn't like that. Expect failures at every step, and successes as well. That's just life; business as usual.
So I'd have to say that my greatest secret was not being stopped by my failures and taking every experience as one more step to the final goal.
KB: Okay, now I’m very impressed Rok. You are saying what I’ve heard so many other successful people say. Michael Jordan comes to mind immediately and President Lincoln.
RH:
I don't know the Michael Jordan story, but President Lincoln is a great example of this.
I'd like to just add that most people have unbelievable amounts of potential that they just need to unleash on the world. Most of them haven't done it because they're afraid of failiure.
Some have done it and failed once and then simply quit just because they thought that they can't succeed. I know some people like this personally. They're right up there with the smartest people I know, but that one failiure stoped them from pushing on. They could have achieved so much if only they accepted failiure as a natural part of life.
KB: Rok, you have so much insight that I am having a hard time believing you're so young. Imagine if the world saw things this way, where would we be today?
So, marketing is your primary focus but with a niche in technical know-how and an entrepreneurial spirit along with all of that, correct? Can you elaborate more on this?
RH: Well, yes, more or less, but much less on the technical know-how side. For instance, I can easily hand-code an HTML web site, even a tableless design using CSS. I understand database technologies and can even write a few SQL queries. I could probably use most software you'd throw at me. But that's more or less it. I'm no techie and I'm not a programmer.
But you are correct with marketing being my primary focus with an entrepreneurial spirit along with it.
KB:I think our readers will agree with me when I say, that’s humility at its best! You know way more than I do technically! How long have you been in business for yourself Rok?
RH: Practically since I was 16, when I managed a summer bar with two of my other friends. That was one of the best summers ever, and also when I discovered the power of advertising and pricing strategies. Too bad I wasn't all that into cost-cutting at the same time.
Perhaps one of the more interesting facts about my professional life is that I dropped out of college in my first year, after taking it for the second time. I just wanted to work and start developing my name and business, and not having to listen to business theory.
But I enrolled in to an entrepreneurial college a few years ago and it does seem I'll finish this one.
KB: Probably because you know what you can do now and the education is a worthy pursuit now that you’ve proved you can do it!
RH: Yes, that's one reason. The other reason is that I learned from some of my failures that I really need to improve on my entrepreneurial and management skills.
KB: What set you on the road to entrepreneurial adventure?
RH: My need to become independent as soon as possible. Independence is the key goal I have been working towards my entire life, along with gaining new knowledge and discovering and testing new marketing approaches.
When I say independence I mean not only financial independence, but independence of the mind and soul as well.
But the problem of trying to achieve such independence is that independence and security do not go well together. Achieving independence actually requires first totally giving up on security in all aspects, and then slowly building it as your independence increases. The more independent you are, the more secure you are becoming.
But it doesn't seem like that.
Independence has a scent of insecurity. People are afraid that independence will bring them insecurity, and it actually feels like that as well, until you discover that security itself is mostly a myth that can only be achieved through real independence.
So just let go. Flow with life. Give up on temporary security; it's only a dream anyway. Strive towards independence and when you achieve it, freedom and security will be there, waiting for you.
KB: Rok, I am on the same page here with you concerning independence. Thank you for breaking this down for us though. I really believe you’ve hit the nail on the head here. Mostly because this is exactly where I am right now and you just encapsulated the whole scenario in a nutshell. What do you find is the most exciting part of working for yourself?
RH: Well, to set the record straight, even when you are an entrepreneur you are working for your clients. Your first goal is to satisfy them and help them to achieve their goals.
And even when you are employed you are working for yourself, because you do your job because you want a result for yourself.
In both instances you are at the same time equally working for your client and for yourself.
Entrepreneurs and employees alike more or less face the same challenges. The entrepreneur worries about making enough money to cover his business costs and pay for his employees. The employee worries about making enough money to pay his personal bills and provide for his family.
But the entrepreneur has to worry about his family as well, so you could say that being an entrepreneur is more challenging, as you carry more responsibility for others. Yes, your family comes first, but it's also not pleasant holding your breath at the end of each month to see if you'll be able to pay your team members and enable them to feed their families. Your responsibility as an entrepreneur is huge.
That's definitely exciting and nerve shattering. This was actually the cause for one of my failures in the past. I just couldn't, at the time, face this responsibility and eventually it got the better of me. I simply couldn't go on.
And then there are the positive thingsJ For me they mostly have to do with creation, development and freedom.
But we do have to understand one thing. Entrepreneurship itself does not bring independence, because you still depend on the market and your clients. Real independence only comes from your mind.
KB: Wow, and most people will think that money brings the freedom. Quite wrong aren’t we? It is in the mind, all in the mind and like you said Rok, no matter what you’re doing you are accountable to someone. Running a business takes a certain “mindset” Rok, so tell us what is the most difficult or challenging part of running your own business?
RH:
- Balancing your professional and personal life, especially if you're a more creative type. The challenge is not letting your need to create come between you and the people you love. I'm still struggling with this one.
- Accepting and learning to live with the increased responsibility for others. Not only do your employees depend on you, but in a way also their families. If you decide to accept this responsibility you better be able to deliver on your promises and do all that you can to enable your people to survive.
- Not getting too attached to your business. It's just a business venture. If it doesn't work out, try again. If the market doesn't accept your ideas, let go, don't push. And always remember that there are people that know some things better than you do; their advice is valuable, but only if you listen to it. If what you believe your business and marketing should be like differs from what the market wants, let go and favor the market, not your own desires. Customers vote with their wallets. Listen to their votes and act accordingly.
- Learning to embrace your failures, not allowing them to stop you on your path. In the end, each failure is actually a success.
- Keeping a strong focus; not trying to satisfy everyone.
- It's too easy to start believing you are exceptional and one of a kind. Don't get that idea until the market tells you it's true.
KB: It’s uncanny to me what you’re saying Rok…like you got inside my head and experienced the battles there. Focus being a key word. We all often think we need to do every single thing that is going on in the business world rather than focusing – mostly because we’re afraid we’ll miss something. Filling a need is key.
You incorporate nicely both your online and offline presence in business, tell us how you do that.
RH: For me there is no online or offline à they both form the communicational landscape of today. You use what you need to and take full advantage of the benefits that each media offers you.
For building my personal recognition I speak at seminars, do live consultations, write articles for print media and do live sales negotiations. I use the internet to communicate with my target audiences, keep constant contact with them, educate them, provide them with added value through my content and build a relationship with them. I further use the internet to spread my ideas and get in touch with people.
But this is only a basic recap, which is also not that very interesting. I'm focusing most of my energy right now on my key account and actually invest very little time in my personal brand.
But, as far as the work for my clients goes, I always try to fully integrate all of the marketing channels available; print media, TV, postal mail, special promotions and events, partnerships, e-mail, web sites, internet advertising and promotion, viral marketing etc. All of these naturally in tact with the overall company marketing model and processes.
KB: I can see why a PR/Marketing campaign with a professional like you is necessary! Before I start into a little on technology Rok, please tell our readers what you attribute your success to.
RH: I think I already explained this above, but to recap: my need for independence and creation, my determination, my skills and knowledge, my failures … and some luck as well.
KB: Sorry for the recap, but I like that you got that all into a nice sentence for us. Okay Rok, now here comes your RSS test. Of course anyone reading this on our RSS channel will know a bit about what RSS is, but would you give us your overview on this topic?
RH: I recently coined a very simple definition of RSS that nicely demonstrates the true soul of RSS:
RSS is a content delivery channel that allows you to easily deliver your internet content to your target audiences, while eliminating a large part of the external noise and shortcomings of other delivery channels.
RSS is not, at least not yet anyway, a communication tool, but a content delivery tool. What content you decide to "push" through it depends totally on you. If you can break your content in to individual and separated items or stories, you can deliver it using RSS.
KB: Nicely put. One thing I HAVE to say here though is if you’re looking for a communication tool, we do have that all incorporated into one nice deal here on Quikonnex.
RH: Yes, I agree. Quikonnex is great and does push the envelope when it comes to fully taking advantage of RSS.
But I have two concerns here:
- RSS wasn't intended for 1-to-1 communication; yes, as Quikonnex has proven it can be used as a personal communicational tool, but it just doesn't offer the functionality offered by e-mail. Right now it's more or less like a private online forum, which is still far from communicational ease and efficiency.
- While RSS might work as a communicational tool, we need to take in to account that although more and more people are using RSS to deliver and consume content, only a very very small portion of these is using it for personal communications. So the question is: is something still a communicational tool if you are extremely limited who you can communicate with using this tool?
KB: Hmmm, you do bring home some valid points. That said, are you currently using any RSS feeds or channels of any kind in your marketing efforts?
RH: Yes, I'm personally publishing an RSS feed for general content updates for my MarketingStudies.net web site.
I was however using RSS more intensively while still working with Finance, where we were offering our users (well, they're still offering this, evidently) the capability to completely customize their own RSS feeds.
Let me just pull a short excerpt from my upcoming RSS report (but please, don't get hung up on my grammar, as this still needs to undergo heavy editing):
Finance-on.net, the internet edition of the business daily Finance, the only Slovenian daily business newspaper, offers its users more than 50 articles and short news items each morning, including regularly added news and press releases during the day.
Because the web site covers so many different business topics, it's impossible for them to completely satisfy the needs of different users using only one "default" content delivery setting.
While some users are interested only in financial markets, others are interested only in corporate news and affairs, and again others only in lifestyle topics, and so on.
Because of the content diversity the entire web site was developed around the customization principle, allowing its users to adjust what content they want to watch on the web site and receive using different content delivery mechanisms.
Their RSS content delivery as well matches this principle, giving their users complete control over what content they want to receive through their own individualized RSS feed.
Once new users register on the web site they are given the option of customizing their RSS feed, using the following customization parameters:
- Content type (articles / news, short reports, commentaries, press releases)
- Content topics (General business news and affairs, Real-estate, Careers, The new economy, Marketing, Personal finances, Financial markets, Tourism, Europe etc.)
- Content with specific keywords: users can also select from hundreds of keywords from the web site's "glossary" (company names, authors, people, ideas, concepts etc.) to further reduce the number of hits from the above to customization parameters, receiving extremely targeted content.
These parameters cover the entire newspaper editorial and also include web-only specific content, such as press releases.
The interesting part is that the customization parameters are set hierarchically, using the above demonstrated model.
- The selected content types determine what content types only is the user going to receive using the RSS feed. He only receives the selected content types.
- The selected content topics determine what content topics only is the user going to receive using the RSS feed, among the selected content types. The user does not receive topics from the content types he did not select.
- The selected keywords further reduce the final results, again pertaining only to the selected content types and topics.
The result is a really customized experience that exactly matches even the most narrow or wide user needs.
After the user modifies his settings he gains access to his own individual RSS feed.
The RSS "subscription" can only follow as an easy tool that gives users greater comfort accessing your content.
Construct your subscription process accordingly.
KB: You write and say so succinctly what I feel but just don’t always quite express in such depth!
You have had great success in using email marketing, but how do you see that changing if at all?
RH: Naturally, e-mail is becoming an increasingly difficult marketing and communicational tool to use, mostly due to the ever increasing amounts of SPAM and the barriers our e-mail faces when trying to reach the intended recipients.
E-mail, in my opinion, is here to stay, but will need to undergo severe changes before it can again become as useful a marketing tool as it once was.
It's all a part of the evolution of the internet. E-mail will evolve. It might come out being something entirely different that what we use now, but the basic concept will remain, and exactly that basic concept makes e-mail such a wonderful communicational challenge: its "democracy" … which has actually brought it to where it is now.
So yes, the effectiveness of e-mail marketing campaigns will continue to decrease, but e-mail will still remain as a viable marketing tool.
KB: Okay, I am inclined to agree with you even though my content delivery of choice is of course RSS, I still use email to communicate.
RH: Don't get me wrong. I love RSS. And I'd love nothing more than to be able to deliver all of my content using it ànd who wouldn't want all of his content being actually received, instead of being blocked by many many obstacles?
But unfortunately the business reality, at least with my target audience, is different. Before RSS can become a truly universal content delivery tool more people need to adopt it.
KB: Yes, and therein lies the struggle - for now. Do you believe that RSS will replace email as a content delivery tool or do you see them more as complementing each other?
RH: I was afraid you were going to ask this!
OK, let's first back-up a little and compare e-mail and RSS side-by-side.
Figure #1, The E-mail Delivery Model, demonstrates what barriers e-mail messages need to cross in order to finally get read.
We start by having to acquire our recipient's e-mail address and permission to communicate, which in itself is a daunting task considering the fear of adding to the e-mail jungle in the recipient's inbox.
We then, after sending the message, need to face various barricades with the recipient's ISP.
After getting through the ISP barricades we still have to "combat" the various filters in place with the user, such as a third-party spam filter, usually coupled with an e-mail client spam filter.
Then, the user still quickly scans the messages, eliminating the most obvious spam, and on top of that usually also performs an in-depth scan to finally decide what messages to delete, move to the dreaded "to read" folder (which never gets read) or actually read.
This model clearly shows how difficult it is indeed to get our e-mail delivered and actually read. There are just too many barriers on the way to make this a truly effective delivery system.
Now, let's take a look at the delivery model for RSS:
While this might look somewhat better, let's not forget that users need to download and install an RSS aggregator (or use a web service), which is a huge step for most people.
This cannot be a debate of whether RSS will replace e-mail, because its individual characteristics in no way make it a viable candidate for internet communication supremacy.
Actually, e-mail and RSS are so little alike that it's quite irrelevant comparing them on most fronts.
E-mail, in our opinion, is here to stay, although it will need to evolve to further retain its usefulness as the top communicational channel.
E-mail is a complete communicational channel and it is hard to imagine any other channel touching it on this front.
RSS, however, offers us unique content delivery opportunities, and this is the area where e-mail might be in danger.
In affect, we must now start thinking of how to use RSS together with existing channels, instead of hoping or fearing it replaces them.
Also, it is important to understand that the RSS vs E-mail decision should be based strictly on how your users want to receive your content. You'd do best right now to start pondering how to use both together.
KB: Hmm, I am grinning here now Rok because I am coming to the conclusion myself that they are going to have to work in tandem. I do know of alternatives to the communication part that are in the works though. Using ALL that we have at our disposal like you mentioned you do in your marketing campaigns is key I believe.
How heavy a load is your email inbox daily and how much of that is “real” email you specifically requested or authorized?
Oh, I get about 600 e-mail messages per day, and about 100 of them are "personal" (business related) and about another 50 or 100 are requested.
KB: Which means the rest is SPAM and that is the major problem right now with email. Do you see RSS as a solution or at least a partial solution to the trouble plaguing email?
RH: In a perfect world, yes. But let's not forget that RSS is only a technology that will only work if people step behind it. Right now its penetration is still too marginal to really make a huge difference in the world. It might eventually get there, but it's still far from it.
Also, the real problem is in the people and not in technologies, such as RSS or e-mail.
Let me pull out two more excerpts from my upcoming report that touch this subject and the dangers associated with RSS, if you don't mind.
The Probable RSS Overload
It is important to add that some of the disadvantages of RSS could also be perceived as advantages for capable internet marketers, most especially the current low RSS penetration.
The growth of RSS content publishers and available RSS content could eventually cause RSS content overload for end-users. With more content available to them every day, and with a lack of fear currently present with e-mail subscriptions, internet users will probably overload themselves with the number of RSS feeds they include in their aggregators.
In a perfect world most internet users would behave rationally, in this case carefully control the number of RSS feeds they watch by carefully evaluating each RSS feed before adding it to their list.
Unfortunately, most people do not behave rationally. It's quite safe to presume they actually will overload themselves with RSS feeds, as they overloaded themselves with e-mail subscriptions. The overload will bring less visibility for your own feed and might even create a situation close to what has happened with e-mail. Yet again your content will be lost among the hundreds of other choices available to the user.
Early RSS adopters from the ranks of publishers will have the upper hand. By starting early and offering exceptionally high-quality content you right now have the chance to position yourself among the top RSS feed providers your target audiences will not want to miss, thus gaining an important competitive advantage for the future.
The RSS Pull v.s. Push
The "pull" factor is often used as one of the key advantages of using RSS in a world where people are tired of "push".
RSS is fundamentally a "pull" channel in the sense that the user needs to proactively include your RSS feed in his aggregator in order to receive content from you. You cannot deliver content to people who have not individually added your feed to their aggregators.
However, RSS in itself is only a content delivery channel. Internet users still need to use special software or web based services in order to take advantage of this channel and actually use it.
Depending on how this software develops in the future, it could introduce strong "push" factors to the entire RSS consumption process. While the channel itself fundamentally is "pull", it depends on the "entire package" (the entire consumption process, which begins with the RSS feed but is used through an additional component, the RSS aggregator) how internet users will ultimately perceive it.
If RSS aggregators start "pushing" their users with RSS content, for instance by displaying a large full-screen notice on the screen when new content items are available in the user's RSS feeds, the entire RSS content delivery channel will become perceived as a "push" channel.
But this is not the worse of what could happen.
When RSS aggregator developers start seeing a huge increase in the number of users, advertisers will soon follow, offering to "buy" RSS aggregator ad inventory. It could start with unobtrusive banner ads and text ads, continue to contextual advertising and end with multimedia ads being delivered through the RSS aggregator, causing even more clutter and a strong "push" perception of the channel.
We are not in danger of this happening just yet, but it eventually should happen if mass RSS penetration is reached.
While this danger will not affect us at this time, it is recommended to keep a close eye on further RSS aggregation software development to be prepared for possible future changes to the channel and the way it is perceived.
KB: It’s the nature of how things work in this world Rok. People always want too much of a good thing and then everyone jumps in on the bandwagon. We could learn a thing or two from the problems we’ve encountered with email and apply that as a learning curve in RSS.
I know you use many different, effective marketing techniques for your business, and those of your clients. Give us your best advice to anyone starting out in a brand new business.
RH: This will be fairly simple:
1. Do a business plan first. Before doing anything else, research the market and do some math. Try to predict how much you are going to sell in the first three years of doing business and how much you'll make. Now calculate all of your costs and evaluate your bottom-line, as well as your cash-flow projections. Now carefully consider if you'll be able to make it under these circumstances. If not, find a different business idea.
2. This one is especially easy: find a unique position for yourself on the market. Easy, right? Think again. There's nothing easy about finding your niche, and chances are that your business idea doesn't stand out from the crowd in any way at all. You're writing the next internet marketing bible? That's great, but it's nothing special either. Don't let that stop you. Search and research until you find a truly unique position. And then create a panel of people that know your industry and check with them if your positioning idea is really that unique. If you find out it's not, go back and redo the whole process until you have your idea. But if someone tells you there is nothing unique about what you're doing, chances are he's right.
3. Yes, you can start your own business with little or no money … but it's much better to have at least some money to invest in it. Remember, your business is your investment. Don't expect to get the world for nothing.
KB: Where were you when I was starting out?? Word to the wise: I’ve always been a “fly by the seat of your pants” person and that doesn’t get you far in business. You gotta have a plan!
To seasoned business owners who are still struggling to stay afloat what would you say?
RH:
Re-evaluate your market position.
Re-evaluate your marketing plan.
Listen to the market.
Innovate.
KB: Rok, it has been a real pleasure having you as our guest today. Thank you and I hope you’ll come back again!
RH: Thank you! It's really been a pleasure.
-----------End Interview----------
Rok Hrastnik is the publisher of
MarketingStudies.net , bringing you marketing views and experience with the difference, including real-life marketing case studies and reports on what we learned from our own successes and mistakes.
